Missed the discussion on the model jboyd posted so adding some thoughts here.
Neat tool to look at, thanks for sharing. Got it bookmarked for future use. The Rust Hagelin chart was interesting, I think Rust is probably the player Hagelin used to be.
I see some guys making complete analysis of where a guy fits based on those charts though and that probably shouldn't be done since it a) only measure specific aspects 2) only features a limited number of games tracked.
Hornqvist is a good example. Not surprised he doesn't do well in zone entries and exits, never been a particular strength and wouldn't be if he had more than 14 games tracked. Shot generation I'm surprised isn't higher as that's been a strength.
But you look at another model like Dom Luszczyszyn's and Hornqvist has the team's 4th best game score and 3rd best game score verses average, both at top line (in the best 93 players in the league) rates.
Neither model paints the full picture. One has him as a 1st line talent and another as a near useless player. Pretty well explains the diverging opinions on him because he has such clearly divided strengths and weaknesses that it depends what you value.
So in the bye week we get to see some more stats of a different kind? Are we supposed to decide if a player is good or bad with these stats? Are all players supposed to be in the blue! Honest questions. Is Bryan Rust an elite NHL player? What style of play are these players being told to play? Is a dump & chase with heavy forechecking a bad thing? Does that show up on these stats? Again, honest question. Do stretch passes show up on these stats as that would be a positive zone entry only the player doesn't carry the puck out.
Are all players supposed to be doing the same thing as these stats do suggest they should to be blue? Honest question. - Aussiepenguin
Not being good at zone entries doesn't make you bad on its own, but generating zone entries is always superior to dump and chase. When you carry the puck into the zone, you are ensuring an offensive possession. When you dump it in, you're losing the puck, which greatly diminishes the chance of an offensive possession. Add in that most quality chances in the NHL come in off the rush, and you see why zone entries are so important.
And, no, dumping it in and then retrieving the puck does not count as a controlled zone entry, so that does not show up on the stat.
Stretch passes would be zone exits in almost every circumstance.
I don't know why you think these graphs suggest all players should be doing the same thing. These graphs show who's good and who's bad at zone exits and entries. If you fundamentally believe that all D should be good at generating zone exits and all forwards should be good at generating zone entries because high and hard off the glass and dump ins are essentially turn overs (which, I mean, isn't a terrible philosophy), then yeah I guess these graphs could be showing you good and bad players in black in white, but as always it depends what context you want to add as the data's interpreter.
Hornqvist is a good example. Not surprised he doesn't do well in zone entries and exits, never been a particular strength and wouldn't be if he had more than 14 games tracked. Shot generation I'm surprised isn't higher as that's been a strength.
But you look at another model like Dom Luszczyszyn's and Hornqvist has the team's 4th best game score and 3rd best game score verses average, both at top line (in the best 93 players in the league) rates.
Neither model paints the full picture. One has him as a 1st line talent and another as a near useless player. Pretty well explains the diverging opinions on him because he has such clearly divided strengths and weaknesses that it depends what you value. - Tojo.
Well, like I said, these charts only represent a very specific statistic. All forwards don't have to be good at zone entries for a line to be functional, although the more who can lend entry support the better, so being bad at that doesn't make you bad necessarily. I would say it does limit what linemates you can play with, though. Like, I would exclusively play Hornqvist with two linemates that excel at entries. Putting him with an LW that also can't gain the zone (Hagelin) is a huge issue.
I would say, though, that a defenseman's ability to generate zone exits is more indicative of his overall skill, though. Defensive zone exits and offensive zone keep ins are a blue liner's two primary jobs. If they can generate zone entries at a high tick like Letang, then fantastic, but that's pretty secondary to getting the puck the hell out of the D zone and extending offensive possessions.
Well, like I said, these charts only represent a very specific statistic. All forwards don't have to be good at zone entries for a line to be functional, although the more who can lend entry support the better, so being bad at that doesn't make you bad necessarily. I would say it does limit what linemates you can play with, though. Like, I would exclusively play Hornqvist with two linemates that excel at entries. Putting him with an LW that also can't gain the zone (Hagelin) is a huge issue.
I would say, though, that a defenseman's ability to generate zone exits is more indicative of his overall skill, though. Defensive zone exits and offensive zone keep ins are a blue liner's two primary jobs. If they can generate zone entries at a high tick like Letang, then fantastic, but that's pretty secondary to getting the puck the hell out of the D zone and extending offensive possessions. - Victoro311
Hornqvist is a good example. Not surprised he doesn't do well in zone entries and exits, never been a particular strength and wouldn't be if he had more than 14 games tracked. Shot generation I'm surprised isn't higher as that's been a strength.
But you look at another model like Dom Luszczyszyn's and Hornqvist has the team's 4th best game score and 3rd best game score verses average, both at top line (in the best 93 players in the league) rates.
Neither model paints the full picture. One has him as a 1st line talent and another as a near useless player. Pretty well explains the diverging opinions on him because he has such clearly divided strengths and weaknesses that it depends what you value. - Tojo.
I believe game score also includes all situations, all be it weighed differently, but Horny's PP contributions show in his game score (not that that's a bad thing, just something to keep in mind) and those entry/exit charts are 5v5 only.
This is an interesting idea when it's hosted by the team with the best record in the NHL. But would anyone really want to watch the best of, say, the Hurricanes or Canadiens if they hosted the ASG? Not that those teams don't have good players, just that they're not on par with the superstars than TB has.
Well, like I said, these charts only represent a very specific statistic. All forwards don't have to be good at zone entries for a line to be functional, although the more who can lend entry support the better, so being bad at that doesn't make you bad necessarily. I would say it does limit what linemates you can play with, though. Like, I would exclusively play Hornqvist with two linemates that excel at entries. Putting him with an LW that also can't gain the zone (Hagelin) is a huge issue.
I would say, though, that a defenseman's ability to generate zone exits is more indicative of his overall skill, though. Defensive zone exits and offensive zone keep ins are a blue liner's two primary jobs. If they can generate zone entries at a high tick like Letang, then fantastic, but that's pretty secondary to getting the puck the hell out of the D zone and extending offensive possessions. - Victoro311
I was actually surprised at how poor Schultz and Letang are at zone exits this season.
I was actually surprised at how poor Schultz and Letang are at zone exits this season.
- j.boyd919
Well while we’ve been noticeably way more fluid through the neutral zone and generating controlled entries, and a lot of that has been Letang, Letang has also been mediocre to poor at times in his own zone. While the putridness of bad Letang has been overblown by a lot, bad Letang is still an issue and he needs to get it together in the D zone if we wanna take that next step. And I truly do think he’s been more consistent lately.
Long story short: I think the stat varies out what we’ve all been seeing.
Location: ...serial abuser...and misuser...of the ellipsis , NF Joined: 12.12.2014
Jan 12 @ 11:03 AM ET
I was actually surprised at how poor Schultz and Letang are at zone exits this season.
- j.boyd919
I feel like every player to a man has improved (at least a little) the last few weeks. Id like to revisit these at the end of the season and compare it to what we've seen the past few days with these charts...they're basically half season charts at this point.
EDIT: Im just noticing that Schultz's chart is based on only 12 games and Letangs is only based on 17 games
I feel like every player to a man has improved (at least a little) the last few weeks. Id like to revisit these at the end of the season and compare it to what we've seen the past few days with these charts...they're basically half season charts at this point.
EDIT: Im just noticing that Schultz's chart is based on only 12 games and Letangs is only based on 17 games - MattStrat
Oh wow yeah that’s the same on every one. Didn’t notice that. I guess since these stats are all manually tracked one person can only compile so much data.
Indeed, the sample size is too small to be anything more than food for thought.
I feel like every player to a man has improved (at least a little) the last few weeks. Id like to revisit these at the end of the season and compare it to what we've seen the past few days with these charts...they're basically half season charts at this point.
EDIT: Im just noticing that Schultz's chart is based on only 12 games and Letangs is only based on 17 games - MattStrat
Most of these are smaller sample size because all of the data is tracked and recorded, they aren't mining stats through binned NHL data, they're actually watching game records and marking everything down second by second.
Oh wow yeah that’s the same on every one. Didn’t notice that. I guess since these stats are all manually tracked one person can only compile so much data.
Indeed, the sample size is too small to be anything more than food for thought. - Victoro311
Yeah, it takes a while to watch 3 hour games from every team lol
Well, like I said, these charts only represent a very specific statistic. All forwards don't have to be good at zone entries for a line to be functional, although the more who can lend entry support the better, so being bad at that doesn't make you bad necessarily. I would say it does limit what linemates you can play with, though. Like, I would exclusively play Hornqvist with two linemates that excel at entries. Putting him with an LW that also can't gain the zone (Hagelin) is a huge issue. - Victoro311
I agree, but that's most Pcs game in a nutshell. They don't do as much getting you into the zone but once they are there their net front presence and board work can give the team a serious advantage. For instance Hornqvist leads our regulars (played 10 games) in stats like Fenwick% and high danger chance% as well as being the top forward (behind Letang and Dumo) in scoring chance%. Those are all at 5v5.
As an aside, Letang leads the team in SC% yet has the worst goals % on the team. That about sums his season up: the good work he actually is doing isn't getting the results.
And Hags pretty much hamstrings every line he's on. The bump in possession he usually gives just doesn't outweigh that he's not doing anything else but win puck battles well. He and Hornqvist together, I feel sorry for Geno.
I feel like every player to a man has improved (at least a little) the last few weeks. Id like to revisit these at the end of the season and compare it to what we've seen the past few days with these charts...they're basically half season charts at this point.
EDIT: Im just noticing that Schultz's chart is based on only 12 games and Letangs is only based on 17 games - MattStrat
Yeah, I mentioned that above. There are enough games to draw some working conclusions but it represents just a fraction of games played so there is a lot of room for change.
So somewhat off topic... but I blame the subpar penguin season so far on my not being able to sell a signed Straka stick. People not in a happy mood because we aren't steamrolling the NHL
